what the war is

[Wilshire]

Now that this debate about the war is being brought to a head during this election time, i thought i'd comment some more on it. Feel free to disagree.

Im thinking more now that the war is a first step, in a sense. There were the previous conflicts in Iraq and the middle east, the attacks of 9/11, and Sadam's refusal to disarm and his support of terrorist groups. These terrorism groups are Islamic fundamentalists, who believe in this ongoing war with the west.

The war is the beginning of the end of this Islamic fundamentalism. Iraq happened to be the first target. It supported terrorism, so now its going out and a better country is coming in. These groups all over the world, particularly in the Middle East will be weeded out eventually, bringing an end to this one point of opposition to the western way of life. This idea isn't fully developed yet, but I heard something about these anti-western ideas, and saw that the war can be related to that.

[JadeGriffon]

I'd like to think the war is against terrorism and is to protect the American people. Of course I do not know our government's true motivation for the war. I don't really buy the whole oil thing, though.

[xpPhantomX]

oh god not another War thread.

The war is to weed out terrorism. But it will never happen. There will always be terrorists in the world. You can never totally defeat terrorism. We can keep spending billions of dollars on something that will never be sucessful. The government might destroy one terrorist organization but another one will rise to the occasion. There are even terrorists the the U.S and Britain, but they do not get the media that the Other Terrorists Organizations. So yes the war is trying to stop terrorism but terrorism will always be present in today's world.

[♫MysteriousMan♫]

technically, wilshire, the war was not intended to "bring an end to one point of opposition to the western way of life," but it was to shut down a dangerous organization. Bush isn't going around the globe saying, "ok, who doesn't act western, cause we're gonna rocket-nuke them in the ass until they start acting like us," but when a major threat arises (as he saw it but many people think that effort should have gone in different directions) then he does something to lessen or stop the danger.

Just trying to clear up minor details that might clarify things.

[unojuno]

Wilshire.... I'm sorry to say, but you trouble me quite so. And JadeGriffon.... whatever. You have the right to your views, and here are mine.

JD, you say that "The war is against terrorism and is to protect the American people." ..... What about the other 6 billion people out there? Or do we just dont care about them because they arnt American. All because we lost, what? 3,000 people? I think that's the number. It is a tragedy, i cant deny that, nor would i ever. The bad thing is is that it happened all at once. But does it ever strike you that you're safe in your bubble that is the United States? Heck, you'll probably die from an American killing you or killing yourself before some terrorist. But if you look at the other countries in the world, there's quite a bit of insecurity. You could go to bed at night hungry. You could have no access to the computer you possess. You could be tortued, beaten, raped, etc, and know deep in your mind that the people of America are caring about themselves, not you. And if you were to someday be free of all the horribleness in your life, it was only an effect, not the goal, or those certain Americans who care about themselves.

Of course, you want to make sure that your government and country is okie dokie before you take care of another. Sure. THe whole Matthew 7: 1-5. Make your country good before critiquing other ones. And that would make sense...but...ummm... is anyone doing that? Nope. They say all the bad things about everyone else, and then feel insecure within the world because it's not safe. "It's just other peoples problems, not mine. You take care of it. I'm not supposed to be like this."

It seems the "war on Terror" is to"rid the WORLD (yup, not just America" of terrorism.... but then it seems that we really are just looking out for ourselves and stabbing all the other countries in the back. But slowly it comes back to just us. Once we dont feel threatened anymore... we'll wistle and slowly walk away like nothing happened. Of course, that wont happen for now. Our Media and Government are on an all time high. Yup, they are smoking fear-filled joint and blowing it in your face. Of course, i cant deny any threats... but you also cant deny the fact that the government has the possiblity to be making you support it in all its actions. If it can achieve that, it can do anything it choses. "whoops, we dont like this....HA! There we go. A THREAT! IN THE NAME OF 9/11 !"

Hope that's not too jumbled...

Now back to you, dearest Wilshire. Aparently most of the Terroirst groups are in the Middle-East because.....?......ah yes, we're told that. Yup. Our major threat is in the middle east......allong with all of our favorite corporate agencies. Halliburtan has enemies in the middle east...why? Because those damn infidels/uncivilized sand-knomes wont let them put a pipe line through their countryside. I'd be an enemy of Halliburtan too if i was in the middle East and didnt want to be anally screwed by people halfway around the world. I'd hate America for taking my land by force, bringin those crazy people to convert me because my religion isnt fit (though you could argue that by practices...but look at your own too...), every so often a fucking bomb comes to my back porch (oops, sorry), and i keep getting screwed over by buisnesses.

Also, you need to throw away your western thought... yes, it is hard isnt it? Always being told that it's the only thing that makes sense, but you have to understand that inorder to understand other people you have to assimilate and empathize with them. You have to know where they come from and how they think before you scream terrorist and blow the shit out of them. You have to understand their culture, their leaders. "why are they so mad at us...oh yeah.............. hey, lets go over there with no guns!...yes, a number of us may die...but it'd look good, wouldnt it?"...that's what i thought.

And to you my dear Foamy. I agree with you in several aspects. It's quite difficult to attack a barely existant thought other than a country. But i do feel that you can remove "terrorism." Even the tyrants of the US (well, not remove em, but council them). We can put them all through Anger management. Or even fight the problem at the source: Educate kids. And i dont mean those silly "sex and drugs are bad, mmkay?" campaigns. But something that isnt weak and can actually teach people things. Start a new slate.


And with that i end for the moment. Tried to stay on topic and i know i left alot out, but i cant write a book to explain every aspect of my views. So you have to bear with my incompleteness.

And Wilshire...I do love you, i really do. Along with you Jade Griffon.

[scott]

unojuno said:

THe whole Matthew 7: 1-5. Make your country good before critiquing other ones. And that would make sense...but...ummm... is anyone doing that? Nope.

Yea,Bush says he is a man of God,but whatever...

Also people think Terrorism is such a big problem.In 2002 more people died from plowing their snow than due to Teriorists.Makes you think...But with Bush and his 'scare tactics' the American people will buy anything he says.

[leprechauneddie]

The Chaun agrees that there is no way to finally defeat terrorism (especially when so many zealots out there believe that they kill people for God) but no one honestly thinks that the US should stop fighting because there will never be an end to it... The Chaun suggests people think about all the other endless crusades we fight every day.

[BELETH the Mighty]

It's impossible to kill terrorism, because terrorism is simply the violent manifestation of people's beliefs. Terrorists believe that what they're doing is right, and nothing, not even some rich white guy ordring nukes up their asses, is going to quench those beliefs. Bush is declaring that he can destroy an intangible enemy. You can take someone's life, but you can't take their freedom to think the way they do (loosely quoting Braveheart there). If you want to end terrorism in the Middle East, you're just going to have to destroy the entire culture, or otherwise kill everyone. And since I'm at least hoping someone will stop Bush before this shit becomes the next holocaust, it's very doubtful that that will ever happen.

[JadeGriffon]

unojuno, I agree with you. The US needs to focus more on the problems in our country. There are people starving, living on the street, etc. And yes, Americans are selfish, but I submit to you that majority of humans (not just Americans) are selfish. It's a bad thing, but some people just seem to have no empathy. The other countries are also just looking out for themselves. I don't like this, but it's the way things are. There are many problems with our country, and they are more important than what's going on over in Iraq. Those billions of dollars (can't recall the actual amount) would have been better used to help this country, not Iraq. Notice how I said "I'd like to think that the war is against terrorism and is to protect the American people." I'm not sure why we are over there. I do not assume to know our government's true motives. And yes, we probably never will defeat terrorism, there are to many people who believe they should kill others in the name of whatever they believe in. Maybe I shouldn't have said "American people," but we have been a target for terrorism. I know other countries face terrorism, too, so maybe I should have said something else. What I'm say is I don't know why we are at war, but I do think we should concentrate on the problems with our country. Though I still don't really believe people who say we are just over there for oil. Sorry if this post is hard to read/understand.

[eric]

fight the good fight

[Wilshire]

unojuno said:

Now back to you, dearest Wilshire. Aparently most of the Terroirst groups are in the Middle-East because.....?......ah yes, we're told that. Yup. Our major threat is in the middle east......allong with all of our favorite corporate agencies. Halliburtan has enemies in the middle east...why? Because those damn infidels/uncivilized sand-knomes wont let them put a pipe line through their countryside. I'd be an enemy of Halliburtan too if i was in the middle East and didnt want to be anally screwed by people halfway around the world. I'd hate America for taking my land by force, bringin those crazy people to convert me because my religion isnt fit (though you could argue that by practices...but look at your own too...), every so often a fucking bomb comes to my back porch (oops, sorry), and i keep getting screwed over by buisnesses.

Also, you need to throw away your western thought... yes, it is hard isnt it? Always being told that it's the only thing that makes sense, but you have to understand that inorder to understand other people you have to assimilate and empathize with them. You have to know where they come from and how they think before you scream terrorist and blow the shit out of them. You have to understand their culture, their leaders. "why are they so mad at us...oh yeah.............. hey, lets go over there with no guns!...yes, a number of us may die...but it'd look good, wouldnt it?"...that's what i thought.

And Wilshire...I do love you, i really do. Along with you Jade Griffon.

Its not just that we're only exposed to the threats from the Middle East. Sure there are threats all over the world. But there is that anti-western idea that exists in the Middle East, and has existed for hundreds of years. That idea presents a threat to the United States and to our way of life. They are fighting the same war, but a different one in another sense. They strap bombs to themselves and run at us screaming things about Allah. They attack our own fellow citizens on our own soil, not just our military. Do we go and murder their civilians...no. Are we trying to "convert" them? Well we sure as hell don't want them practising their religion if it involves killing our troops AND our civilians, even on our own soil.
I don't think we went over their with guns to look good. And we aren't going to "assimilate and empathize" with them. They pose a threat to us, so we must deal with it in the one and only way that will achieve anything...war - full scale, no "peacekeeping" nonsense. We fought the Communists this past century, and they were indeed an "evil empire" (millions upon million of people died under their leaders, because of the deliberate actions of those leaders). So when a people come kill our civilians in our country, when they oppose our very way of life, should we not take action against them. Not to look good, but because its the first step in what will be a long conflict, to ensure our protection.

Yes, i love you too (not like that).

[Wilshire]

Beelzebub said:

It's impossible to kill terrorism, because terrorism is simply the violent manifestation of people's beliefs. Terrorists believe that what they're doing is right, and nothing, not even some rich white guy ordring nukes up their asses, is going to quench those beliefs. Bush is declaring that he can destroy an intangible enemy. You can take someone's life, but you can't take their freedom to think the way they do (loosely quoting Braveheart there). If you want to end terrorism in the Middle East, you're just going to have to destroy the entire culture, or otherwise kill everyone. And since I'm at least hoping someone will stop Bush before this shit becomes the next holocaust, it's very doubtful that that will ever happen.

Well we haven't ordered nukes up their asses. We aren't just going to blow them all up, but we have to start somewhere, and hence Iraq. Our military's procedure is to chose its targets, not just go in and kill them all. (Im inclined to believe if these terrorists were to attack the US they would not pick military targets...sound familiar?)
Maybe terrorism wont stop. In fact i can say with certainty that it wont stop completely, violence is part of human nature. But i have a problem with not doing anything about it. There are alternatives to war. Guess what, we've tried a lot of them, and they didn't work. Bush has the idea (the right idea i think) to do it, and to do it right. What is "it"? Taking action against these terrorists, against evil dictatorships, spread our way of life, which is inarguably better than that in most places.

Lets face it, America is one damn good place to live. Poverty is there, violence is there, there is corruption. But compared to the Middle East, India, China, etc...we are well off. Not all people are priviledged, but America offers the ability to suceed, something other places refuse their people. So we recognize these threats to our way of life, and strike against them, and offer a better way of life (in general, and in theory) to these people. We're not saying we're better than everyone, but there are a lot of places that would just be better off changed.

[BELETH the Mighty]

Here's some food for thought:

Like I said, terrorism is a belief system, a way of thinking. Those people believe that killing certain people is the right thing to do, that it will set things right. In those people's eyes, the attack on 9/11 was viewed as an attack against the 'evil' forces of American imperialism and corruption. Now after they killed our innocents, we went in and killed thousands of their soldiers, plus twice as many innocents as they took from us. And why? Because we believed it was the right thing to do, that it would set things right. In our eyes, the war in Iraq is viewed as an attack against the 'evil' forces of terrorism. The ugly truth is that America is not the police force of the world; we're just a big bully. We are nothing but a highly organized and officialized form of terrorism. They wanted revenge for us trying to lay pipelines in their homeland, and we wanted revenge for killing 3,000 of our citizens. No matter how justified or righteous you try to make our killing of thier people, it still boils down to one thing; We are both killing people based on our beliefs. And none of your 'Bush is a great man' bullshit can deny that truth.

[Wilshire]

So what are our beliefs? We don't believe flying planes into their buildings or blowing up bombs to kill civilians will be an attack against their evil ways. We retaliate because they attacked us. Yes we are killing people, unfortunately some innocents are also killed. But there is a difference; they deliberately killed ours, we strike at military targets.

The point im trying to make is that the war is in a way the beginning of our major retaliation against their way of life, which involves blowing up Americans. Its the historical anti-Western East that we are first retaliating against, but in a broader scope, we are fighting terrorism as a whole. We shouldn't just sit back and say "well thats their way of life and its not wrong, its just how they are".

[scott]

Wilshire said:

We shouldn't just sit back and say "well thats their way of life and its not wrong, its just how they are".

But we shouldn't also just send in troops,bomb them,and go to war.What good is war?War is worthless.