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Post by Sarien on Nov 25, 2003 20:42:17 GMT -5
Gosh. I'm in the minority here. Scary. I believe it's the mother's decision, period. I agree with what Seiryuken more or less. I just believe that it shouldn't take place after the 2nd trimester (or maybe not even then as it shouldn't take that long to decide whether or not to go through with it). *clears throat* This'll be a long one.
People say that abortion isn't moral as an arguement against abortion. They say that the pregnant woman shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place and that she must now take responsibility for her actions. What if a female goes out on the ice (maybe against the advice of her parents) and the ice breaks and she is slowly drowning in the freezing water? Should we rescue her? Maybe we should shout out to her, "You should have known better than to go out on the ice. You should have followed their advice, now you have to accept the consequences of your actions." It's easy to say "should" and "should not" but in the real world people don't always do what they "should" or "should not" do. When they inevitably make mistakes, what course of action is best? Obviously the choice that allows a person to have the most joy and fullfillment in their lives.
Another major arguement deals with the suffering of a human child. "Baby Killers." That's a little extreme. Consider this. An embryo is certainly not a baby yet. Here we run into semantic problems. Let me suggest that suffering and pain are two important ideas. No one wants any child to suffer or be in pain. What is required for pain and suffering? Consciousness is required. Without consciousness there can be no pain or suffering. So when is the developing human conscious? Consciousness does not appear until the cells of the brain begin to interact. [Note: I did a report on abortion so I have my sources -__-]
And then there is the concept of murder. The Ten Commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill." We manage to justify exceptions for warf, self-defense, capital punishment, euthanasia, etc. Hmm....
Didn't the goverment give people the right to life, liberty, property? These are our inaliable rights. Your property is anything that belongs to you…your body belongs to you. So the government doesn’t have the right to take our inalienable rights from us.
[copy and pasted from the report] Abortion should also remain legal because of women that have been subjected to pregnancy from rape. According to a study, unintended rape pregnancies convey trauma to the majority of the rape victims. The study indicated that after the trauma of rape labor, 94% of the victims went into a Post Rape Syndrome (PRS), depression from the rape. Included in the study, out of 37 rape pregnancies, 28 aborted before the term. Most of the remaining ended up abusing the, what the victims refer to as the “rapist’s baby”.
Also, if abortion was made illegal, people would go back to having abortions on their own, without the proper conditions. And as Seiryuken said, many unwanted children suffer from psychological problems, especially where the mothers don't have the financial stability to raise the child (as happens in cases with unplanned pregnancies- most of which have to go through it without the support of the "man responsible").
[Since I've gotta run, I'll wrap this up.] The main argument I see is when does life begin. At the moment there is no way to prove this. Different studies show different dates (though most are after the 11th week of gestation I believe). This long post was what I believe. All I know is that I'm 16, financially dependent on my parents, and set on going to college. If (by some twist of fate), I get raped or somehow get pregnant, I'd get an abortion.
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Nov 25, 2003 21:18:46 GMT -5
Bravo! Bravo!
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Clump
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Post by Clump on Nov 25, 2003 21:39:03 GMT -5
Didn't the goverment give people the right to life, liberty, property? These are our inaliable rights. Your property is anything that belongs to you…your body belongs to you. So the government doesn’t have the right to take our inalienable rights from us. The baby doesn't belong to the mother. It is not part of the mother. |
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Nov 25, 2003 21:43:27 GMT -5
It is for 9 months.
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Clump
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Post by Clump on Nov 25, 2003 21:47:31 GMT -5
Well then you bring the whole issue of time into the picture. 9 months is a very small amount of time. Siamese twins may be connected to each other, but aren't they two different people? Do they belong to each other? Human's cannot be owned, that's why slavery is illegal. A mother does not own a baby. |
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Post by scott on Nov 25, 2003 21:56:00 GMT -5
Just don't have sex before marriage.It solves the problem of this,STDs,and many other things.
Why can't people get this through their heads?
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Post by Sarien on Nov 25, 2003 22:01:15 GMT -5
Again, we get into the issue of when embryos become sentinent, and when life truely begins. My hair isn't alive (best example I could come up with on the spot) but it's my property. That's if you're with me that embryos don't have awareness for X amount of time.
People have sex before marriage because...well...they can't wait (don't want to or maybe they're drunk/high?). I don't know. I'm don't condone it.
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Clump
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Post by Clump on Nov 25, 2003 22:15:32 GMT -5
The person should never have gotten drunk or high in that case. Life starts at conception.
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Post by scott on Nov 25, 2003 22:21:10 GMT -5
Amen,as soon as the sperm hits the egg is when I say life starts.And I am not up for killing anything.
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Post by Wilshire on Nov 25, 2003 22:46:46 GMT -5
There is HUMAN life in development at soon as the egg and the sperm meet. The baby does not belong to the mother, it is a separate life. The mother must take it upon herself to nurture the baby, in order to bring life into the world. Just because rape victims who have the baby get depressed is no reason at all to take another human life. Abortion doesn't deal with any kind of life, it deals with human life, and the promise of it. Anyone and everyone (even embryonic babies) deserve a chance in this world. No one but God has the right to inhibit life such as that.
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Post by William on Nov 25, 2003 22:50:06 GMT -5
Now let's consider why people abort. It's because they don't want the baby. So if we let the baby live, it grows up in a family that doesn't want it. And we all know how wonderful those people turn out. I say abortion is a mercy killing. Just don't bring the kid into life if that life is going to consist mainly of pain, neglect and abuse. It's also a preventative measure. Kids that grow up in a cold, unloving household have much higher chances of becoming psychotic, homicidal, etc. Just look at Hitler. Now there's a little bastard who shouldn'ta made it past the first trimester. I shall now await the barrage of replies and accusations of my status as a baby killer........ stupid baby killer! (naw im just kidding with you man) but if you werent wanted they shouldnt have had sex, so its their fault, their consequence, and its right for them to get out of a situation they knew about (in about 99.9% situations exclude rape) and they knew the consequences, by killing someone else... also, adoption is allowed, and ask anyone adopted wether they would rather be aborted than grown up... same above for anyone not wanted but raised for that reason... i happen to know two people that were in that situation...and they would be pissed as hell if they were aborted, and the parents eventually did not regret it...they are embarrased to admit they almost did have an abortion... further...your not a baby killer, your a man, not the woman.. and rape, you got screwed, you have a baby, many people would kill to have a baby, and you would kill it not to have it? |
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Post by Mark617 on Nov 25, 2003 22:58:30 GMT -5
Now let's consider why people abort. It's because they don't want the baby. So if we let the baby live, it grows up in a family that doesn't want it. And we all know how wonderful those people turn out. I say abortion is a mercy killing. Just don't bring the kid into life if that life is going to consist mainly of pain, neglect and abuse. It's also a preventative measure. Kids that grow up in a cold, unloving household have much higher chances of becoming psychotic, homicidal, etc. Just look at Hitler. Now there's a little bastard who shouldn'ta made it past the first trimester. I shall now await the barrage of replies and accusations of my status as a baby killer........ ur right william, adoption is the perfect alternative to abortion. for one thing, abortion can have serious psychological consequences on the "mother." also, in michigan (i think more states should incorporate this) and maybe some other states, a mother simply needs to drop her baby off at a police station, fire station, hospital (maybe some others) and the adoption will be taken care of for her, and no action can be taken for abandoning her baby at those places. |
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Clump
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Post by Clump on Nov 25, 2003 22:58:31 GMT -5
many people would kill to have a baby, and you would kill it not to have it? That's good. You're right, adoption is a simple solution to having a child grow up in a family that doesn't want it. |
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Post by William on Nov 25, 2003 23:01:58 GMT -5
i just now read this... Gosh. I'm in the minority here. Scary. I believe it's the mother's decision, period. I agree with what Seiryuken more or less. I just believe that it shouldn't take place after the 2nd trimester (or maybe not even then as it shouldn't take that long to decide whether or not to go through with it). *clears throat* This'll be a long one. People say that abortion isn't moral as an arguement against abortion. They say that the pregnant woman shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place and that she must now take responsibility for her actions. What if a female goes out on the ice (maybe against the advice of her parents) and the ice breaks and she is slowly drowning in the freezing water? Should we rescue her? Maybe we should shout out to her, "You should have known better than to go out on the ice. You should have followed their advice, now you have to accept the consequences of your actions." It's easy to say "should" and "should not" but in the real world people don't always do what they "should" or "should not" do. When they inevitably make mistakes, what course of action is best? Obviously the choice that allows a person to have the most joy and fullfillment in their lives. Another major arguement deals with the suffering of a human child. "Baby Killers." That's a little extreme. Consider this. An embryo is certainly not a baby yet. Here we run into semantic problems. Let me suggest that suffering and pain are two important ideas. No one wants any child to suffer or be in pain. What is required for pain and suffering? Consciousness is required. Without consciousness there can be no pain or suffering. So when is the developing human conscious? Consciousness does not appear until the cells of the brain begin to interact. [Note: I did a report on abortion so I have my sources -__-] And then there is the concept of murder. The Ten Commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill." We manage to justify exceptions for warf, self-defense, capital punishment, euthanasia, etc. Hmm.... Didn't the goverment give people the right to life, liberty, property? These are our inaliable rights. Your property is anything that belongs to you…your body belongs to you. So the government doesn’t have the right to take our inalienable rights from us. [copy and pasted from the report] Abortion should also remain legal because of women that have been subjected to pregnancy from rape. According to a study, unintended rape pregnancies convey trauma to the majority of the rape victims. The study indicated that after the trauma of rape labor, 94% of the victims went into a Post Rape Syndrome (PRS), depression from the rape. Included in the study, out of 37 rape pregnancies, 28 aborted before the term. Most of the remaining ended up abusing the, what the victims refer to as the “rapist’s baby”. Also, if abortion was made illegal, people would go back to having abortions on their own, without the proper conditions. And as Seiryuken said, many unwanted children suffer from psychological problems, especially where the mothers don't have the financial stability to raise the child (as happens in cases with unplanned pregnancies- most of which have to go through it without the support of the "man responsible"). [Since I've gotta run, I'll wrap this up.] The main argument I see is when does life begin. At the moment there is no way to prove this. Different studies show different dates (though most are after the 11th week of gestation I believe). This long post was what I believe. All I know is that I'm 16, financially dependent on my parents, and set on going to college. If (by some twist of fate), I get raped or somehow get pregnant, I'd get an abortion. statement one rebukal: - you said we should go out on a limb and help her so her life can be saved...and you use this to support the ending of life of someone who didnt even make any actions... - you said that even if they made a bad mistake we should help her...so shouldnt we help even more those who didnt make the mistake...dont they deserve it more...? the baby? the baby never did anything wrong...and yet we kill it so the mother doesnt have a few effects on her life... statement two rebukal: - they say your killing a baby, well...they didnt say your inflicting pain and suffering, that was never mentioned, they said you were killing the baby..you made a defense against a different statement, and applied it to this one...try again... statement three rebukal: - thou shall not murder is final, I never rationalized self defense, there is a killing page, maybe sensative subjects thread, but not all of us say those situations you listed as just reason for murder... - for those that did rationalize those reasons, you did not rationalize the abortion, you just said that since some can be rationalize this should...and thats not a good reason..."since some people are rich, I should"?... statement four rebukal: - Government gave the public will, and the baby is one of public, they have right to life, and the rights you are given cannot enfringe on others... - The persuit of happiness is fulfilled, you cant sue a roller coaster company for making you barf, you had your happiness on the ride, then the consequences...you cant just expect no consequences... statement five rebukal: - you put the condition of a person over the life of another... - post rape syndrom is not prevented by an abortion...it comes regardless...so that information is not valid or legit...only another precent used to try to convey us... - the baby does not have to be given to either in the rape... |
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Nov 25, 2003 23:57:27 GMT -5
ummm... I think they're supposed to be rebuttals, and not rebukals. Is rebukal even a word?
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