Omnipotence?

[The Wanderer]

Over the years, people have used the statement, "Can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift" to question the existence of "God." but I've always found that a bit lacking. Not only does it not sum up precisely the problem with the idea of omnipotence in general, you will occasionally wander across a Fundie who simply says "Yes!", and then you're up the creek without a paddle, trying to refute your own impossible proposition.

I like the question, "Can 'God' create a twenty dollar bill?"

The answer to this a resounding and definite "no."


"God" could come very close; He ccould most certainly create a perfect counterfeit, but only the national mint can create a true twenty dollar bill. They alone have the power to declare the bill legal tender.

Your thoughts? And I am discussing the existence of "God." The Judaeo-Christian view of it, not the existence of a creator type being.

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THIS POST WILL COME IN SEVERAL PARTS

NOTE: I AM NOT AN ATHIEST, AND NONE OF THESE REPRESENT MY VIEW.


Proof #1: The theodice problem:
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?
It is true that God cannot be both almighty and good if you restrict Him to our level - three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. However, this God is not the God of reality or Christianity, since both the Bible and science would indicate that God must exist in more than three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. The Bible says the universe cannot contain God (1), indicating He must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. The Bible also says God created time and was acting before time began (2), confirming that God exists in at least two dimensions of time. A single dimension of time (a line) has a beginning point and can only travel in one direction. Two dimensions of time (a plane) has no beginning or ending so that a being existing in such a plane would be free to move to any point along any line of time within that plane.
Both of these descriptions of God are confirmed by what we know from science. According to particle physics and relativity, at least nine dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe. God must be able to operate in all of those nine dimensions in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews indicates God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us (3). Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time (4). Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Therefore, if God created the universe, He was acting before the creation of time, indicating He exists in at least two dimensions of time. If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future.
The main problem with this argument is a lack of understanding of the reason for the creation of the universe. The universe was not created to be good. God created the universe as a temporary testing site for creatures to choose to love Him or reject Him. God is good, but He has allowed His creatures free-will to do whatever they want within their limited dimensionality. God has designed the universe to operate under a set of physical principles, which He, only occasionally, suspends. If God were to suspend the laws of physics on a regular basis the universe would be a universe of chaos and unpredictability. Such as universe would not be a good testing ground for confused mortal beings. The purpose of the universe is to allow God's creatures the choice to love Him. Love is not possible without free-will. Therefore God chooses to allow His creatures the ability to do evil for the purpose of permitting them also to love. If God controlled everything we did, we could not demonstrate love, since we would be pre-programmed to respond. A computer cannot love, but free-will beings can.
The temporary nature of the universe and created beings requires that the universe operate under the law of entropy. If there were no entropy, we could not be tested since we would, by definition, be eternal and not have to face the mortality of our existence. Such an existence would not require our dependence upon God, since we would never have to face Him. The law of entropy guarantees our mortality and that we will suffer pain and death at some point. Neither pain nor death is evil from a Christian perspective. For example, pain is a necessary function in our lives. If we could not feel pain, we would end up causing serious damage to ourselves. Whenever I get burned, I move my hand rapidly away from the source of the pain. If I had no pain receptors, I would probably continue to burn my hand until I noticed the smoke. This would obviously not be a good thing to do. Likewise, death is required in a universe governed by entropy. Without animal death, very soon all the carbon on the earth would be bound in living organisms, with none available for photosynthesis.
Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.
Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

Proof #2: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies only to humans, since we a restricted to only one dimension of time. God, existing in two or more dimensions of time can know all properties of all particles, since He can exist at any point on our line of time any numbers of times. Therefore, God can measure both the position of a particle, remain at the same point on our line of time, then measure the speed of the same particle. Two dimensions of time allow one to do some pretty awesome things. Think about the implications of this characteristic of God.

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Proof #3: The ontological evidence
It is necessary that God is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a God. Not any of the existing religions can provide such a God. Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against God holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.
There are several hundred million Christians who believe the Christian God is worth worshipping. However, there are other religions which worship other Gods. Therefore, this cannot be a valid criteria for determining whether God exists or not.
God both has and continues to communicate with humans. Men with which He has communicated have written His words in the Bible. Those who are born-again Christians communicate with God on a daily basis. When I was an agnostic, I didn't believe this could be possible. However, when I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, His Spirit indwells me and talks to me (The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16).
There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against God, that you can do to try the existence of God. Pray, and ask God to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that God exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no God.
I am surprised that this example is listed as a test for the Christian God. There are some major problems with the validity of this test, since the Bible tells us this test will fail. The Old Testament tells us not to test God (5). This concept was reinforced by Jesus when He was tempted by Satan, who told Him to jump off the temple wall. Jesus cited the same verse from Deuteronomy not to test God (6). Therefore the only thing this test proves is that God is not the God of some non-Christian religion.
However, there is a test you can do which will give valid results. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16) "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21) This is the only valid direct test for the Christian God's existence. However, it will cost you your life (7), and require you to bend your knee in submission (8). I can tell you from experience that Jesus will follow through with His promise and reveal Himself to you, and surprisingly, you will be filled with great joy (9).
"God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than God because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than God then either God cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or God is the known world, in which case, by definition, God is not a God."
The Bible never defines God as infinite, but defines Him as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe. This does not mean that He is infinite. Some Christians have said that God is infinite, but this concept cannot be supported biblically. The only characteristic of God described as infinite is His knowledge or understanding (10). Therefore, the argument does not hold, since the God of Christianity is not described as infinite.

Proof #4: Occam's razor
Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in English: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labor which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.
Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent God. A God which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in himself has his own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning.
Occam's razor is actually a good argument for the existence of God. I will explain shortly. Contrary to the statements above, the universe cannot replace God as explanation for its own existence. The universe is finite in both size and time. The universe had a beginning in finite time at the moment of the Big Bang. How did this universe decide to create itself? How did the universe design itself with physical laws and parameters exactly fine tuned to support life? The laws of physics are designed with such precision that it is almost inconceivable that they could be the result of chance. For example, take the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 10^37 (I have indicated exponential notation with a ^ symbol for the purposes of this paper, e.g., 10^37 = 10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros) otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe. The likelihood of this occurring by chance is described below:
One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10^37.
Other constants of physics, such as the expansion rate of the universe, are fine-tuned even more delicately, as small as one part in 10^55. Random chance does not design such a well-crafted universe. All the atheistic explanations for such an exquisitely defined universe require the presence of trillions of other universes, of which ours is the one which happened, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets. Therefore the atheistic explanation actually goes against Occam's razor since it requires some mechanism by which universes can sprout from some super universe and randomly change their laws of physics. If one were to calculate the number of universes required, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets, it would exceed 10^10000 (talk about multiplying entities!). The mechanism by which physical laws could randomly evolve would add further complexity. Design by an intelligent designer is obviously a much simpler explanation. Check these papers for some of the other parameters for both the universe and our planet, which are designed to exact standards.
The statement that "the world stands above time" is false. The universe stands within time, having come into existence at time = 0. See Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time.
"Most theists agree that God has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created God's nature? If we just accept that God has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?"
God is uncreated, therefore His nature is just as eternal as He is. Although it is possible the universe and the physical laws could exist without a cause, 1 in 10^10000 is not exactly what one would call good betting odds. It would be much more likely that your car's engine would thermodynamically reverse itself (i.e., freeze solid instead of warm up) every time you started it..

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Proof #5: Some things are impossible to do
There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If God were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.
Contradictions are not possible by definition. Therefore they are impossible by definition in this four dimensional universe. All the things that are impossible in our universe are so because they are defined to be impossible. If you restrict God to our four dimensional universe, He would, likewise, be unable to do those things. However, God is not restricted to our universe. In addition, God can do anything if He changed the laws of physics, which He promises to do in the New Creation.
Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.
Definition of miracle: Something that violates the laws of physics. God can suspend the laws of physics to provide proof for His existence. He does this on occasion, but not routinely, since routine suspension of physical laws would drive us crazy - nothing would be predictable. Not only is it logically possible to stand above our dimensions of time and space, it is required, according to particle physics studies, for the universe to have come into existence.

Proof #6: God's omniscience restricts His free will
Also, if God knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus God's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If God has no free will God is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If God stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if God stands above all dimensions God is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!
The Christian God exists in at least two time dimensions, therefore His free-will is not hindered by our dimension of time. He stands both above and within our time line, since our line of time runs through His plane of time. The argument totally falls apart at this point.

Proof #7: God cannot be almighty and allow free will simultaneously
Besides there can exist no free wills at all if God is almighty. If you had a free will, God wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.
The two dimensions of time take care of this one, too. God knows what each person will do and can put him anywhere in our time line to accomplish His purposes. Complete free-will and complete predestination is possible in two dimensions of time. However, this concept may require some time to think about.

Proof #8: God must be created so why does the universe need a Creator
If everything must have been created, then God must have been created as well. If God is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

The Christian God exists in two dimensions of time, by definition being uncreated. The universe exists in only one dimension of time, which Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose tell us must have begun at the moment of the Big Bang. Therefore the universe must have been created at the beginning of our dimension of time.

Proof #9: If God created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent.
The logical conclusion is that God must live outside of our dimensions of time and space in addition to living within our dimensions of time and space. Since science tells us for God to exist and to have created the universe, He must exist in at least 11 dimensions of space and time (the four within the dimensions of our universe and at least 7 outside of those dimensions). Therefore He is extradimensional, not non-existent. The Bible is also clear that God exists both within our universe and outside of it.

Proof #10: God has never contacted me. He must not exist.
We would never notice God: This is not an evidence against God, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a God who stands above time.
However, the Christian God exists both within and outside of our single dimension of time. Existing in at least two dimensions of time, God is not restricted to always following our time line, but can, through His second dimension of time, spend as much time as He likes at any point on our time line. This concept is stated biblically in 2 Peter (11). Therefore, if 100 million people are praying to Him simultaneously, He is able to stay at that point in our time line for as long as necessary to hear and respond to their prayers.

Proof #11: God cannot be involved in our universe if He stands above our time dimension
If God stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see God in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This God is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor.
Again, the author fails to recognize the Christian God exists in at least two dimensions of time, as such He is not bound by the chains of events tied to our single dimension of time. Davies book is out of date and he lacks understanding of Christian doctrine. His later comments reflect a different understanding of the universe and its design:
"There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".
"The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

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Proof #12: If God existed, prayer would have already changed the world into the best possible world.
If somebody would pray to God and God would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides God would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of God.
Again, a complete lack of understanding of the Christian reason for prayer. Prayer is communication with God. Communication is a two way conversation, not a monologue of telling God what to do. If Christians were perfect, every prayer would be answered because we would always be within the will of God. However, as most people are well aware, Christians are not perfect and often pray against God's will. God will not do anything against His will and therefore will not grant our selfish requests. I could pray that God would let me win the lottery (if I played it). However, God knows that I would become greedy, buy all kinds of computers and gadgets, and ignore Him. It is in my best interest that I remain middle class (it might even be better for my spiritual life if I become poor - I hope not!). The main problem is that we are stupid and selfish creatures, and don't really know what is best for us. However, God, being omniscient, does know what is best for us (12). Therefore, the purpose of prayer is not to tell God what to do, but to be conformed to the will of God (i.e., listen to Him).

Proof#13: Only things that can be sensed with the five senses are meaningful to discus. Therefore, all discussion about God is meaningless.
Logical positivism is based upon the verification principle, which states that for a statement to be meaningful, it has to be either true by definition or verifiable by one or more of the five senses. This means that all discussion about God should be considered meaningless. However, the verification principle itself fails its own test, since it cannot be verified by any of the five senses. It is a self-refuting principle, and, therefore, logically flawed.

Nobody really believes in God
Many atheists tend to stereotype Christians as stupid, uneducated people. However, I personally know dozens of Christian scientists, who not only believe in God, but can rationally present evidence for His existence. In our department at the Research Institute of Cedars-Sinai Medical Center we have no atheists - although we have one agnostic. All the other people - 4 M.D.'s, 2 Ph.D.'s, 3 R.N.'s, and the others, with B.S.'s or M.S.'s - are theistic. Christianity specifically calls people to use their brains. As Robert Griffiths (Heinemann prize in mathematical physics) stated:
"If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use." (13)
It is the atheist who now denies the implications of modern cosmology and physics because they imply the existence of a Creator. Those who believe the Big Bang correctly describes the origin of the universe, must admit that the universe had a beginning in finite time and space. Did it just pop into existence on its own? Did it just happen to have exactly the right physical laws and constants required for life? It is the atheist who must believe in miracles to explain our existence. Therefore, John Gribbin, an atheist physicist has stated:
"The biggest problem with the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe is philosophical - perhaps even theological - what was there before the bang?" (14)

The primary objection to the Big Bang and its implications is this "God problem," not because of a lack of scientific evidence. Geoffrey Burbidge, astronomer from U.C. San Diego has recognized the implications of the 1992 COBE satellite discoveries, when he complained that his fellow astronomers were rushing off to join, "the First Church of Christ of the Big Bang." (15)

If God exists, how can we know what religion properly describes Him?
If God is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of God? (or the Bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of God, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?
The God of the Koran and Hindu Vedas are Gods restricted to the time and space dimensions of this universe and, therefore, are logically impossible (check out some of your own proofs). In addition, most of these books contain scientific absurdities. All the so-called holy books base their claim of authority on the basis of fulfilled prophecy. Most of these prophecies are either vague or conditional, making them essentially untestable. The highest percentage of prophecy fulfillment, other than the Bible is 50%, with many other prophecies proven to be false. In contrast, the Bible names people, places and dates in remarkable detail, with 2,000 of the nearly 2,500 prophecies already fulfilled, and none provably false. The remaining prophecies are reserved for the end-times, which have yet to have happened.
I absolutely agree with atheists who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, even in the name of Christianity. However, these atrocities were not perpetrated by God, but by evil human beings. Remember the words of Jesus:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

Not all who claim the name of Jesus are actually His disciples. My guess is that in even the best of Christian churches only about half of the people truly Christians. Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not on the basis of what people do who merely claim to be Christians.



LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!!!

PS. I hope you all read all this. It's some good stuff, not that I believe it or anything.

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I almost forgot:

References

1. Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)

1. The Almighty is beyond our reach. (Job 37:23)

2. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

2. The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

2. To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

3. The universe was formed at God's command, so that what was seen was not made out of what was visible. (Hebrews 11:3)

4. Penrose, R. 1966. An analysis of the structure of space-time. Adams Prize Essay, Cambridge University.

4. Hawking, S.W. 1966. Singularities and the Geometry of space-time. Adams Prize Essay, Cambridge University.

4. Hawking, S.W. and G.F.R. Ellis. 1968. The cosmic black-body radiation and the existence of singularities in our universe. Astrophysical Journal 152: 25-36.

4. Hawking, S.W. and R. Penrose. 1970. The singularities of gravitational collapse and cosmology. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series A: 529-548.

5. "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah. (Deuteronomy 6:16)

6. and Satan said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, LEST YOU STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'" (Matthew 4:6-7)

7. "He who has found his own life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it." (Matthew 10:39)

8. that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, (Philippians 2:10)

9. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full." (John 15:11)

10. Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. (Psalms 147:5)

11. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)

12. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

13. Stafford, T. 1987. Cease-fire in the laboratory. Christianity Today April 3, p. 18.

14. Gibbon, J. 1976. Oscillating universe bounces back. Nature 259: 15-16.

15. Strauss, Stephen. 1992. An innocent's guide to the Big Bang theory: fingerprint in space left by the universe as a baby still has doubters hurling stones. The Globe and Mail (Toronto): April 25, p. 1.

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And now, the other end of the spectrum.

Philosophy and the proof of God's existence

One of the most far-reaching consequences of the rationalism of the Enlightenment was the undermining of basic Christian faith among the educated classes. The effect was unintended because the project of many Enlightenment philosophers was to prove the existence of God using reason: Descartes and Leibniz assumed that God's existence could be rationally proved, indeed God was a necessary part of their philosophy.

There are many traditional "proofs" for the existence of God, and we will look at three of them: The argument from design, the ontological argument and the cosmological argument.
Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence
1) The argument from Design.

If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.

Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.
2) The ontological argument

God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist.
3) The cosmological argument (God as "First cause")

Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.
Pascal's Wager

The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)

His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures.

If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished.

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?
Kant

Kant attempted to show how philosophy could prove the existence of God. Unfortunately, for him his previous work showed that we could not know reality directly as thing-in-itself. What is real in itself is beyond our experience. Even if God exists, we can not know God as he really is.

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.
Hegel

Hegel thought that the God of religion was an intuition of Absolute Spirit or Geist. Hegel's Geist is not like the transcendent (outside of our consciousness) God of traditional Christianity. For Hegel God is immanent and when we have understood that history is the process of Geist coming to know itself it appears that we are all part of Geist, or God.
Feuerbach and Marx

For Feuerbach and Marx religion is seen as the projection of the human essence onto an ideal: God does not make man. Rather "God" is the invention of human consciousness. Marx also sees that religion is part of an ideological view that encourages the oppressed to accept their fate. As he says: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of men, is a demand for their real happiness. The call to abandon their illusions about their condition is a call to abandon a condition which requires illusions."
Søren Kierkegaard
Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

Kierkegaard is regarded as the first existentialist.
Nietzsche: The Death of God

[Clump]

"Have you not heard the madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place and cried incessantly, 'I seek God!, I seek God!' ... Why, did he get lost? Said one. Did he lose his way like a child? Said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? Or emigrated?... The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"'Whither is God'? He cried. 'I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers...'"

"...the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they to were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out. 'I came too early,' he said then; 'my time has not come yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering -it has not yet reached the ears of man."

In these passages Nietzsche is showing the inevitable unfolding anthropocentrism (lit. putting man at the centre of the world) implicit in philosophy since Kant. If we view our existence through human categories, then our concept of God is itself a human creation.

Nietzsche is not simply asserting his atheism; he is suggesting that once we are aware that the concept of God is our own creation we can no longer base our religious and moral beliefs on any notion of a divine external reality.

In the period that Nietzsche was writing, the death of God was just beginning. Western thought was starting to face the prospect of a radical change in its orientation, and it wasn't quite ready to own up to it yet.

Kierkegaard and Nietzsche represent opposite reactions to the inability of rationality to give a rock solid theoretical proof of God's existence. Kierkegaard calls for us to embrace God even if it seems an absurdity, while Nietzsche says it is time for us to create a new mode of being, with human creativity at its centre.

The atheist existentialist Sartre accepted God's death and much of his writing is attempt to look at the human condition in a world that is without a prime mover who could have provided a basis and structure for the understanding of being.
The twentieth century

Anglo American analytic philosophers of the twentieth century have tended to agree that philosophy may help us clarify religious concepts, without giving us a secure foundation for religious belief.

Many people claim to have had a religious experience, to have experienced the divine directly. This experience is direct and is of a different quality to sensory experience or intellectual discovery, and therefore outside of the scope of philosophy.

The view that the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved by philosophy has not stopped developments in modern theology. Theologians are attempting to balance the anthropocentric view of God presented by philosophers since the Enlightenment with the need to provide a spiritual path and a guide to an ethical and meaningful way of life.

THE END

[Wilshire]

that was some "almighty" posting. Get it? Hah, okay never mind.

Lets start from the beginning. God created the universe. For everthing there must be a "cause" and it goes back and back in time until at one point, something has to be un-caused. God is that first-cause. He is uncaused, and he caused the universe.

God exists outside of time, above our level of comprehension, thus all that mathematical bullshit is rendered insufficient. We can know God by ourselves, simply because of the evidence all around us: millions of people worship a God; there is evidence of supernatural occurences suggesting something supernatural; and there have been people who have willingly died for something greater than wordly life itself. Because God exists outside of time, he knows everthing, and because he is omniscient and omnipresent he knows everything to the most complete extent. There is a great rift between the natural and the supernatural, us and God(there's a name for it but i forget). Its so large that we will never span it except when we enter heaven. The evidence for God, indeed the numerous proofs for God, far outweigh the weight that arguments against God hold. Science can not be used rightly to disprove the existence of God, there is a great deal of faith involved that one must have to accept God. He can be proven by basic logic, and can be disproved by basic logic. But the disproving holds nothing against the basic logic used to prove His existence, and the hard evidence in the world.

[Liek]

Wow, Mark, just wow. That was alot of copying/pasting, right? You didn't just come up with that on the fly, right?

Here's my question: "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?"

[Sarien]

Wow...those posts are long. Copy & Paste is your best friend. ^__^ As for the burrito question...Simpsons? It sounds like a silly question though but it really does make you think. I'd say no. Why? I like saying 'no' and I don't feel like reading Clump's long ass post to find out (good job though Clump, I'm just feeling lazy). -__-

[William]

yeah clump...i dont wanna read those...but thanks...umm...

about the burrito, how about he makes it so hot jesus cannot eat it, but he can...so God cannot, yet God can...

answered...its beyond our typical logic...

also...a rock so heavy he cannot lift, ok, he cant, then he empowers me to lift it, so it is his power, and his doing channeled through me, as so he does not litteraly do it, but he has all the power and beyond to do it...

[William]

ok...the whole time thing, why is God outside of time, he is time and defines its limits, so how is he outside it...you have no eveidence at all to support it...

im not sayinng your wrong, people just say that as a given, and say its beyond our logic, well maybe he is in time, and he does all the stuff in time beyond our logic...

and free will, i would like a direct verse that shows free will...

[The Wanderer]

Okay, I am NOT, I repeat NOT questioning the existence of a god. I am only questioning the existence of "God" in terms of Christianity and the Bible.

I take the deist approach to the creator. That of a clockmaker who created the universe and set the wheels of evolution into motion, nothing more. It's not just some crazy guy sitting on a cloud making sure we don't "sin" and shooting down lightning bolts and stuff like that.

It is not a singular entity. It is more like a universal soul that interconnects all beings and matter within the universe. Just because it is omnipresent does not automatically make it omniscient and omnipotent...

And like I said, the entire rock idea is flawed for the reasons you just gave... It can not be proven either way if the one posed the question just says "yes" or attempts to bypass the question.

Also, just because people have believed in and died for this "God" does not give any proof to his existence. What of all the other religions, they believed and died just the same, and yet Christians say that their god(s) do not exist...

[Clump]

William said:

yeah clump...i dont wanna read those...but thanks...umm...

I posted those so that they could be read by people, and that is what you'll do. Read the posts and respond. You're not helping anyone by not contributing to the topic at hand.