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Post by William on Oct 15, 2003 13:03:18 GMT -5
does anyone suppor marxism?
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Oct 15, 2003 19:57:28 GMT -5
Marx had some great ideas there. Of course, since they required everyone to put in some effort and give something up for the good of all, it didn't work. Man is a selfish and greedy creature by nature, and some people you just could never convince to give up anything. Woulda been great, but of course the evil capitalist pig dogs prevail in the end.
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Post by Wilshire on Oct 15, 2003 20:33:50 GMT -5
Marx had some great ideas there. Of course, since they required everyone to put in some effort and give something up for the good of all, it didn't work. Man is a selfish and greedy creature by nature, and some people you just could never convince to give up anything. Woulda been great, but of course the evil capitalist pig dogs prevail in the end. Very true, except for the capitalist pig dogs prevailing at the end there. Marxism is doomed from the start b/c it holds that everyone can be equal. The truth is that equal opportunity (which America provides) does not equal equality. Communism in its essence can only hold people equal on a crappy level, it can not hold them equal at a high level b/c of what Seiryuken said. Plus Marxism, Communism and the like completely contradict themselves. They provide that everyone is equal, but in truth the masses live in relatively crappy conditions and are severely restricted, and the rulers live in luxury. As for captialists pig dogs....well America is based on Capitalism. It isn't perfect, but its the best the world has going. Capitalism is the idea of every man looking out for his best interests (making profit) and vicariously he makes profit for the economy of the whole country. |
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SuperCrazySquanto
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Post by SuperCrazySquanto on Oct 15, 2003 20:37:54 GMT -5
America does not necessarily have equal opportunity, which is why affirmative action is such a hot topic. America's government is flawed, and thus one cannot say that the US offers equality just because they promise it...
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Oct 15, 2003 21:10:49 GMT -5
Yes, but here's the thing. Since capitalism says every man for himself, those that start out with an advantage keep getting richer and the poorer get poorer. Sometimes the rich man is so obsessed with his wealth that he steals it from other people. It's a terribly unfair system, and I like fairness.
And it's only on a crappy level of equality like you say when there isn't enough to go around to make everyone happy. Russia didn't have enough for Communism. But in America these days, your average rich person could easily care for a good deal of other people besides himself, if he could bear to sell his Porsche and his two million dollar house. Hell, I think it was Sweden or Switzerland that had Socialism in action, and it made everyone totally happy. But again, their lack of resources caught up with them and put the country into debt, which led to recession. But America, land of the rich, we might jsut have a chance at pulling it off. Besides, if it doesn't work out afterall, we could always just revert back to stealing from the weak and powerless, and all would return to order for the upper and middle classes.
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Post by Wilshire on Oct 15, 2003 22:06:10 GMT -5
America does not necessarily have equal opportunity, which is why affirmative action is such a hot topic. America's government is flawed, and thus one cannot say that the US offers equality just because they promise it... Some people are born into disadvantage. Some are born into advantage. But America offers the ability of one to move up the ladder of success (not necessarily becoming rich) through hard work. It offers that equal opportunity, and people aren't equal anyway to it can't offer equality, like i said. Although it does offer equality of rights such as those of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines." And money isn't happiness either. Affirmative action is unfair. It appoints people of lower credentials to higher positions than those who have better crudentials. If people who received affirmative action really did have great recomendations, then they wouldn't need it. Ill admit that affirmative action does help in those instances where managers of companies and the like are being unfair, but overall if someone is better qualified for the job, then they will get it, no matter what. |
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Post by Wilshire on Oct 15, 2003 22:09:35 GMT -5
I know ur gonna call me racist now, but i truly am not, im looking at the matter objectively.
And when you are just itching to get to be a project manager someday, and you know you're perfectly qualified for teh job, and some african american woman (just an example) who has lower credentials and is not even ready for it gets picked instead of you, you'll see what i mean.
Or, when some white person of native american ancestry with a 2.5 and a 900 SAT score get selected over you with a much better gpa and SAT score for a college instead of you, you'll also see what i mean.
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SuperCrazySquanto
Big Gulp
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Post by SuperCrazySquanto on Oct 16, 2003 10:44:11 GMT -5
You're completely missing the point I made. America does NOT have equal opportunity. Factors such as racism and homophobia prevent certain groups from attaining certain positions. America is not perfect like your making it sound to be. Call me unpatriotic, but this country has alot to change if it wants to truly say it offers equal opportunity.
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Post by Wilshire on Oct 19, 2003 23:39:56 GMT -5
I said before that America isn't perfect. It isn't. But it is a head above the rest of the world. Go to the middle east and see what i mean. America is the best democracy in the world, and democracy is the best form of government in the world right now.
People have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Not to become wealthy, but to move up their position in life. Its true that racism and the like do hold people back, but they are recognized problems, not ignored. It is a fact that anyone who works hard will move up the ladder of success.
Too many people are damn lazy and just decide that they wont work and they can live off the checks from the goverment. These checks support too many lazy people! Who pays the checks and thus pays the lazy people?? Not the government, but the wealthy, many of which worked their asses off to be wealthy. Even many working class people have worked their asses off to get money, and they end up paying tons of money in taxes to support lazy ass poor people who are only as poor as they are because they are lazy. Now that is a major problem in America.
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Post by BELETH the Mighty on Oct 20, 2003 19:46:30 GMT -5
Once again, with the completely faulty views. Just how do you know this information? Did you take a survey of people on welfare? And in doing this, did you determine how many of these people were lazy? Fact of the matter is that pretty much everyone on welfare is struggling to support them and theirs, forced to get a 7.50 an hour job to allow their children to attend school. So don't say shit unless you know shit. And does it really hurt that badly to give a sliver of money away to someone who faces a daily battle just to feed themself? Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not poor people.
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Post by Mark617 on Oct 20, 2003 20:41:11 GMT -5
well, welfare is abused by many people, not a majority, but a good number of people do abuse the system. part of the problem with welfare in this country is that theirs too many seperate organizations give out money. this results in people who get more than their share. also some people who get food stamps to feed their children, instead sell them to buy drugs, another abuse of the system.
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Post by Mark617 on Oct 20, 2003 20:44:02 GMT -5
as for communism, itll never work. To have true communism, the government has to give up control once the system is set up (which will never happen). and Socialism is just as corrupt as any economic system, a person who does little work will get just as much money as a man who works his ass off, and thats more unfair than capitalism in my opinion
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Post by Wilshire on Oct 20, 2003 20:59:57 GMT -5
Once again, with the completely faulty views. Just how do you know this information? Did you take a survey of people on welfare? And in doing this, did you determine how many of these people were lazy? Fact of the matter is that pretty much everyone on welfare is struggling to support them and theirs, forced to get a 7.50 an hour job to allow their children to attend school. So don't say shit unless you know shit. And does it really hurt that badly to give a sliver of money away to someone who faces a daily battle just to feed themself? Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not poor people. Sure there are people on welfare that need that money because they are struggling. But there are a whole lot of people who don't even bother getting jobs and they are on welfare, getting the same amount of money that the person working hard is getting. And i would say that the lazy vastly outnumber the hard working. So many people realize they can get government money, and so they choose not to work. Many others work hard but don't get paid much, and need the government money. The former (the lazy) abuse the government support because they are just too fucking lazy. My father works in the emergency department at the hospital. He says all the time that he can't believe the number of people who are poor because they are "unemployed". He will ask people in their twenties, "so what do you do for a living?" and they just shrug and say "im unemployed". Often times they blame it on some non-existent medical problem. So i know from experience that there are tons of people that abuse welfare. These people are the fucking lazy people that drag our country down. Don't start asking me about taking a survey when you can see it for yourself that the number of lazy fucks who sit on their asses all day and get money from the government make up the majority of the people on welfare. There are people who work hard, and don't get much, so they need money from the government, i realize that. I don't have a problem. The poor do. And that minority that works hard and needs that money from the government should have it. But that majority that are lazy and choose not to work should not have that money. |
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Post by Lord Mildrid the Nut Schlapper on Oct 30, 2003 17:23:13 GMT -5
as for communism, itll never work. To have true communism, the government has to give up control once the system is set up (which will never happen). and Socialism is just as corrupt as any economic system, a person who does little work will get just as much money as a man who works his ass off, and thats more unfair than capitalism in my opinion Quite right. An tolitarian state will never give up its power. Capitalism is the fairest system devised so far. This is due to the fact tha tif you had it's possible to work your from nothing to something. Now, I am not saying from bum to millionair but from bum to I have a place to live, a steady job, and enough money to buy food stuff with. The system is based around the fact that men in genral are mishchevious and untrutworthy. This way nothing is presumed and everyone has equal market access and oportunity. |
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SuperCrazySquanto
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Post by SuperCrazySquanto on Oct 30, 2003 18:51:47 GMT -5
Anyone else notice that you can always not read Wilshire's posts, simply say that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and you'll always be right? Funny...
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